Curse

Laylat · Dec 09, 2011, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Just as my current Warrior build is set--standard HB, the only difference in game play I see is that instead of the damage numbers being 9 + 9 then changing to 17 + 17 once cracked armour is applied, I get to see 17 + 17 from the get go.

Missing HB · Dec 09, 2011, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Maybe they did this to change the " kind of gameplay" on antimelee and i can agree on it .. However, i will sum up my point towards this in two points :
- Ele didn't really need a buff
- what is a pain for dervishs is a nightmare for warriors( especially those easy blind spams)

ruk1a · Dec 09, 2011, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

No it would be a nerf to armor ignoring damages. These armor ignoring damage would NOT be dealing more on lower armor targets. They would be dealing the SAME damage no matter what their target's armor is, except now, you have to contend with higher hp monsters.

Therefore it is a resulting nerf to all armor ignoring damage but for it may or may not be a buff for armor respecting damages (depending on how much armor is lowered and how much hp is raised).

Derp I know this, which is why we probably won't be using armor ignoring damage anymore. My point was we use armor ignoring skills NOW, making armor not matter that much in current HM. Excluding classes like the elementalist of course.. which is basically what this change to HM is for. Probably going to see a LOT more ele's and such in PvE now.

I'm just interested to see how they balance out the -armor/+hp ratio and what effect it has on certain skills, some probably be OP as hell, might do too much damage depending on how much they nerf enemies armor unless they're adding a ridiculous amount of HP which imo is what they will have to do.

Also, is this armor debuff going to be in effect for all HM bosses as well? What about things like dhuum? Does he even have traditional armor or a set % damage reduction for all skills even armor ignoring? His 80k life turning into 300k would be uh..idk.

Xsiriss · Dec 09, 2011, 02:21 PM // 14:21

This is a joke, bring it out before the Holidays and people will come back to check it out most probably. Otherwise most people don't bother for recycled festivals. It's been far too long since we've had a skill balance that wasn't and overhaul. Could you also for the love of gods get round to rangers within the next millennia, they're weaker than eles in pve.

Bristlebane · Dec 09, 2011, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Shockwave 10

1

15

Elite Spell.
Deals 60 earth damage and 10 seconds Weakness to foes in the area.
Deals +60 earth damage and 10 seconds Cracked Armor to nearby foes.
Deals +60 earth damage and 10 seconds Blindness to adjacent foes.
(@15 Earth Magic)

Sounds like a strong candidate for meta builds. Cracked Armor will still be viable in HM since I'm sure even after the armor reduction since they still have well over 60 armor. Targeting balled up melee ensures they're neautralized with blindness, followed by perhaps Stoning on nearby casters/healers who now take +41% damage from Cracked Armor. Ranged damage not hit by blindness is hopefully hit by weakness to reduce their damage.

AndrewSX · Dec 09, 2011, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Good to see that this update didn't take a year like the derv one.

Anyway, i'm sure will shift a bit the meta re-introducinig eles in quality of caster dmg in regular pve....but pvp balance is almost screwed as when derv updates came out.
I'd prefer to see moar splits, or we'll just have the usual : Months of god-like just adjusted class -> endless sequance of minor tweaks never hitting the trouble -> anet giving up after having just toned down the issues.

Anyway: like a lot the innovations (double cast, new water line and some nice ideas out of there looks interesting) and will surely bring me back on my ele. Don't know where and doing what, but will.

KotCR · Dec 09, 2011, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Double Dragon looks like a nice skill to help make the only good non-PvE only Paragon thing viable "They're on Fire!". You've got Blazing Refrain and Blazing Finale already, but this will help alot too as it basically works similiar to Blazing Refrain with bonuses and without the silly health limitation. 'course, I'd rather they help the Paragon by adjusting the Paragon, but alas...

I like the Water changes for the most part, bringing Waters more into line with Guild Wars 2 Water seems like a good idea to make the line stand out a bit more. I know it was already decent in PvP, but was incredibly rare to see one in PvE. This update, when it comes, will now hopefully change that.

But, Water Trident looks kinda ridiculous now. I already thought it was superior to "Coward!", now it be even more so. No sense a physical bringing "Coward" once this is out as their elite, just spec Elementalist secondary and bring Water Trident instead (it gets the knockdown without any attribute anyway, right?), which will also give you a good excuse to also bring Conjure Frost, and maybe one of the Water +AL w/other bonuses skills, if you plan to invest some attributes. It will be pretty fun though.

Finally, about the hard mode changes...I don't think the effectiveness of physical classes will be changed much. I mean sure, the armour ignoring damage they do from attack skills will be less relevant with increasing health on enemies, but their regular damage will become more relevant due to the armour decreases so the two should balance each other out for the most part hopefully.

Plus, as has been mentioned, this might have the net affect of making Rangers and Paragons a little more potent as physical damage dealers, seems while their weapons (Spear and Bows) both have rather high base damage per attack, armour made this irrelevant and their attack skills just couldn't compete damage wise with those of Warrior, Assassin and Dervish, meaning they underperformed. While they probably will still underperform compared to those classes at damage (which they probably should seems they attack at range instead of in dangerous melee range, though right now the difference is too large), the gap between the two physical attack ranges should hopefully be somewhat closer after this update.

Skyy High · Dec 09, 2011, 04:48 PM // 16:48

People really need to get their heads screwed on straight and stop flipping out so much.

Case in point: let's look at Shockwave. Completely unused skill, in both PvP and PvE. So, they add a few conditions to it, and suddenly it's game-breaking? It will do the exact same damage after the update that it does now, but it will reward good positioning with conditions, a reward that is sorely necessary because, as I said, no one is using the skill in its present state.

Bull. Crap. If eles want to play in melee range, they're going to be relying on enchantments to stay alive. That makes them fragile. Blow them up like you blow up everything else, and stop complaining that the mage class might actually get a chance to shine as a damage dealer (particularly in PvE) that isn't based on Mind Blast.

Anyway, I like how they're basically taking the GW1 ele model ("pick one element, use it exclusively, mostly for damage with a bit of control thrown in") and turning it into the GW2 ele model ("do lots of things with lots of different elements").

Xenomortis · Dec 09, 2011, 05:05 PM // 17:05

I am somewhat unimpressed (w.r.t. PvE). Predictably they focused on the elites and I've commented before that the core problem isn't the lack of impressive elites. Although the reduced cast times on some skills are nice I guess.

Quote:

This update focuses mainly on improving elite skill options and adding a global change to Hard Mode foes. Even though this update is mostly limited to Elementalist elite skills, we are also addressing some normal skills for Elementalists that we felt could use some changes and a few non-Elementalist skills that have become too powerful.

Stop doing things backwards.

Kunder · Dec 09, 2011, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

People really need to get their heads screwed on straight and stop flipping out so much.

Case in point: let's look at Shockwave. Completely unused skill, in both PvP and PvE. So, they add a few conditions to it, and suddenly it's game-breaking? It will do the exact same damage after the update that it does now, but it will reward good positioning with conditions, a reward that is sorely necessary because, as I said, no one is using the skill in its present state.

Depending on where Cracked Armor takes effect in the chain it could be a huge buff to damage. If that isn't the case then I don't see much improvement really. Weakness and Blind are both things you don't care about if they are on your squishies, all they do is let the RC insta-counter this spell. Though if physicals are training someone it might be decent on them if the Blind is covered by other conditions.

On the PvE side though, its a great way to open up on an already balled group. Not obscenely OP, but a good choice of buffing. Spreading lots of cracked armor around is a somewhat hard thing to do otherwise that pays a lot of benefits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Bull. Crap. If eles want to play in melee range, they're going to be relying on enchantments to stay alive. That makes them fragile. Blow them up like you blow up everything else, and stop complaining that the mage class might actually get a chance to shine as a damage dealer (particularly in PvE) that isn't based on Mind Blast.

For PvE keeping casters alive on the frontline is at most roughly 5% harder than keeping warriors alive. Both die in 2s from 300 damage attacks, both survive forever with stuff like SY or PS.

For PvP, HA has always been a clusterRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO where positioning means a lot less. Won't have many problems there. GvG is certainly going to present a much larger obstacle, but Eles have pretty good IMS options that can be put to use.

Quote:

But, Water Trident looks kinda ridiculous now. I already thought it was superior to "Coward!", now it be even more so. No sense a physical bringing "Coward" once this is out as their elite, just spec Elementalist secondary and bring Water Trident instead (it gets the knockdown without any attribute anyway, right?), which will also give you a good excuse to also bring Conjure Frost, and maybe one of the Water +AL w/other bonuses skills, if you plan to invest some attributes. It will be pretty fun though.

I don't really see whats so great about Water Trident TBH. All they did was add adjacent AoE. How often do you see multiple players running in the exact same direction close enough to be adjacent to each other? Thats a very hard condition to satisfy.

Coward is still an instant knockdown while Water Trident lets a smart enemy stop moving before it hits or otherwise dodge the projectile.

Mireles · Dec 09, 2011, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Personally... I like the idea of making skills more strategic and having to be positioned and aimed... the whole target and push skill bar button is to simplistic to be called skill... yes these skills got a big up in power but u have to know how to use the skill for it to be effective.

DiogoSilva · Dec 09, 2011, 05:49 PM // 17:49

*PvE-wise*

What I like the most about this update, is that it is buffing the elementalist's unused options, not make the class directly stronger than they already were (excluding the much-needed HM changes).

Through the entire update text, the staff team reminded us how skills like Savannah Heat and Searing Flames will keep being some of the best options, and they made an effort to make "equally good" skills, that either have higher damage potential for a much higher risk, or deal less damage for more utility and party support.

Some people say the eles don't need a buff. But let's not forget that before HM came in, most of their PvE builds were: Searing Flames and Savannah Heat. And Unsteady Ground as an alternative, especially in HM. And Invoke Lightning sorely for the lack of better HM options, AP caller aside.

And with the exception of Invoke, those builds will surely get back and regain meta status.

Let's see what elementalists will do after christmas:
- Savannah Heat will be back as one of the best;
- Searing Flames will be back as one of the best, and might have Fireball as an option to Liquid Flame.
- Unsteady Ground, which used to be slightly weaker than the two above, will be back and now with a slight boost to recharge and a slight boost to the Churning Earth's casting time.

And in regard to new elites:
- Blinding Surge builds might still not be very viable, if not for the lack of better non-elite air skills.
- Glimmering Mark is going to the better Blinding Surge. You won't care much about spiking armored foes, so damage is irrelevant... unless it is armor ignoring, and it keeps generating while you focus on the casters. This way you can keep high damage to both an adjacent group of physical attackers and to your target casters, all the while cycling blind. So, you put the Mark on the physicals, and then spike the casters with lightning Orb + something else.
-Gust might be an alternative to Psychic Instability for AoE knockdown, but you need to be near the mob.
- Lightning Surge is really strong for single-target spike, but what good non-elite air skills are there to follow? Lightning Orb is redudant, but you'll at least have Chain Lightning.
- Ride the Lightning is fun, but for PvP. Or maybe for the day better non-elite air skills come up, like, say, improved tenai's wind and the like.
- Thunderclap, the skill that is going to put air builds top tier, alongside Savannah/ Searing. Spammable, ranged, AoE rupts/ cracked armor and weakness. Too easy.
- Double Dragon is an enchantment and it can be stripped. It'll probably require the elementalist to have a cover enchantment ready to cast on the ally target, and some armor boost so they themselves can come close to the enemy.
- Mind Burn, spammable fire adjacent-range spike? Maybe.
- Star Burst will be the new Mind Blast. Touch range, but stronger.
- Mirror of Ice is cool to use on tanks and then bombard the mob, but you have Deep Freeze for that, with no attribute investment. Because you're going to invest on fire or earth in this case.
- Shatterstone is the new and better Energy Surge, guys. +100 single target damage instead of -9 energy. It might still require some better non-elite water builds, though.
- Mist Form might just do fine for those hybrid damage/ healer builds that is so popular nowadays, especially for heroes. Your Mist Form + Deep Freeze + Ice Spikes + Maelstrom Vekk might just do great all the while your centaur hero bombarbs with area-of-effect spells and your mesmer panics them all.
- Shockwave, high risk, high reward. Thunderclap seems less risky, but Shockwave deals huge damage, has a bigger area range, and neutralizes the melee more, in exchange of melee range and no rupt. Might just be about equal.
- Stone Sheath might just make some new defensive meta builds, I think.
- Energy Boon will probably make Monk Heroes more efficient, but the builds I can imagine with this would probably be weaker than anything with Ether Renewal.

EDIT: Taking a vague conclusion from this, air and earth builds will arise and gain meta status alongside Savannah/ Searing; some more specific and alternative builds will be strong enough but depend a little on the party synnergy, and several potential builds will be hindered by the lack of non-elite options.

urania · Dec 09, 2011, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Case in point: let's look at Shockwave. Completely unused skill, in both PvP and PvE. So, they add a few conditions to it, and suddenly it's game-breaking? It will do the exact same damage after the update that it does now, but it will reward good positioning with conditions, a reward that is sorely necessary because, as I said, no one is using the skill in its present state.

I guess you dont do RA (which is the sole more or less active 'pvp' format left) that often - shockwave is usually the elite of choice for most stoning spammers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Bull. Crap. If eles want to play in melee range, they're going to be relying on enchantments to stay alive. That makes them fragile. Blow them up like you blow up everything else, and stop complaining that the mage class might actually get a chance to shine as a damage dealer (particularly in PvE) that isn't based on Mind Blast.

Relying on enchants to stay alive? You mean, kinetic armor and armor of earth..? If so then I can't say its worth replying to any part of your inane post. I recommend you rethink what you've posted.
Your 'mage class' is already one of the most frequent classes in RA/gvg/HA, so it's time to wake up from your delusions and look at things at face value.
Given that I see a minimum of 1-2 invoke/mb/earth/water eles per mission enter in RA, i wonder what game you're playing. As far as I'm concerned, I cant stand seeing eles everywhere anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Anyway, I like how they're basically taking the GW1 ele model ("pick one element, use it exclusively, mostly for damage with a bit of control thrown in") and turning it into the GW2 ele model ("do lots of things with lots of different elements").

And they're missing the fact gw2 is a whole diff game than GW1 and in effect use a sledge hammer to crush those few remaining pieces of so-called balance left scattered around.

I'd rather have a full revert to proph days instead, tyvm.

On a side note, I don't understand how you can call it a skillful use of a spell if the req to make it skillfull is a range as huge as 'in the area'. It's obviously going to be completely stupid on many maps.

DiogoSilva · Dec 09, 2011, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Shockwave builds aren't that great in RA, really. Both the elite and the 1-dimensional KD chain can be easily avoided. Shockwave is only there for the lack of better options, but the weakness from the new version will help the build a lot. Someone said the new shockwave only needs weakness of the three conditions for PvP, and I might agree, especially because of this build.

RA water eles are also outclassed, but maybe they can find their place back with the improved elite skillset and the slightly more efficient Ice Spikes.

To be honest, I usually only see MB and Invoke at RA. The mindless Blinding Surge is going to come back, unfortunately, even though it requires more skill for the new extra damage. Invoke will not be as mindless, but might just get outclassed by newer options.

Kunder · Dec 09, 2011, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

On a side note, I don't understand how you can call it a skillful use of a spell if the req to make it skillfull is a range as huge as 'in the area'. It's obviously going to be completely stupid on many maps.

I bet the 2x Nearby ranges are going to be even worse than the In the Area spells. Keep in mind that if 2 enemies are X distance away, an AoE spell cast on an enemy needs to have a radius of X to hit both, but an AoE spell cast on an ally needs to have only a radius of X/2 to hit both. Being able to directly aim where it hits with your positioning will have large benefits.

Hitting 2 people per AoE is going to be the absolute minimum with these spells. 3 people if the enemy positioning is even slightly bad or the map isn't an entirely open area. With 2 AoEs at once thats 6/8 of the enemy team getting hit in an 8v8 situation.

I'm betting we see these dual-AoE spells get the Ancestor's Rage treatment in a short time. 1s effect on self that then creates the appropriate effect when it ends, to both prevent stacking the effect for spikes and to let smart players have a chance to get away.

Skyy High · Dec 09, 2011, 06:52 PM // 18:52

@urania: No, sorry, I didn't take RA into account when making that post. I wasn't aware that RA was now a significant concern for balance. Oh, wait, it's not.

Almost ditto for HA, with the caveat that AoE has always been big there. That's what 8v8(v8) king of the hill maps do to a format. FWIW, you now have Ward Against Harm to give all allies +48 armor against ele damage and +3 regen; seems like a pretty decent hard counter to this nuttery.

Azrayel mysteluvr · Dec 09, 2011, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Maybe they did this to change the " kind of gameplay" on antimelee and i can agree on it .. However, i will sum up my point towards this in two points :
- Ele didn't really need a buff
- what is a pain for dervishs is a nightmare for warriors( especially those easy blind spams)

well looks like my sin will have assassins remedy on her bar at all times.

Kunder · Dec 09, 2011, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

@urania: No, sorry, I didn't take RA into account when making that post. I wasn't aware that RA was now a significant concern for balance. Oh, wait, it's not.

Almost ditto for HA, with the caveat that AoE has always been big there. That's what 8v8(v8) king of the hill maps do to a format. FWIW, you now have Ward Against Harm to give all allies +48 armor against ele damage and +3 regen; seems like a pretty decent hard counter to this nuttery.

At best WAH will give you only 50% uptime though. It also requires you to stand right in the middle of the fight which opens you up to an easy interrupt.

I'm hoping this means that Anet fixed this armor stacking bug (with other skills that have similar effects to WAH the +24 and +24 stack to make +25

)

Way2dead · Dec 09, 2011, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Oh wow, look at all those comments!

I mainly pvp so ill only look at that

Hmm ride the lightning, trolololol i just blinded your whole team! Even with the split i don't like it, more blind is not fun, bflash should already be nerfed let alone making 5 other skills too disable your frontline.

Bsurge, nothing changed tbh.

Shockwave, lolololol i just blinded+ weakened + reduced armor on your whole team, now lets spam that 100+ damage stoning!

Second wind- this skill now has no function would do the same, i srsly won't ever use it, i think almost no one will

Shatterstone is nice, 1 ball up, partyykilllllll. The reason i really don't like this is that with a 40/40 set and 2 fronts next too each other you can spam it 1 for 1 (not on the same target cuz it's still a hex) and you still do LOTS AND LOTS of damage. Especially with the energy cost.

Water trident....
....
Lol kd your frontline 24/7 if they accidentally ball up! Water trident was a strong skill already, it didn't need a buff for pvp.

Double dragon has been said already.

In pvp you don't need invoke skills, not that 100 damage spam shit. Damage buffs for ele's in pvp are just not needed imo....

[email protected]!k3 · Dec 09, 2011, 07:26 PM // 19:26

At least I'll still have my imbagon build. :forever alone: